Iman Gadzhi

Iman: Pretty loaded question. But what do you think makes a strong personal brand in today's day and age? Gosha: Like, they sniff out bullshit so easily. Or, just, get to the point. I can tell you're trying to make yourself appear more smart than... Iman: 100%. Gosha: Don't you feel like, and maybe this is a bit controversial, but your conversion of the content that gets people to buy something, is propelled by the fact that there's a lot of people creating positive perception around your brand? Iman: I think you do get to a certain place with your personal brand where it no longer becomes relatable to the audience. Very excited because I said 2025 was all really like putting my business owner cap on, and I think 2026 is a chance to kind of step back into... pick up my creative cap and, you know, wear that for a little bit. Iman: All right, you want to break or shall I? Gosha: You should, you should. Iman: You want me to break? Gosha: Yeah, yeah. Iman: You good at pool? Gosha: We'll see. I'll start slow and then we'll build up. Iman: Are we playing for anything? Gosha: Well, let's see where it goes. Maybe first game we'll keep uh as a practice... Gosha: Oh my lord. Gosha: That's the top. That's the best... Nah, I can't. I can't even describe... Iman: Why... why is it the one time it's on camera, I scuff it? Iman: There we go. Fuck. Gosha: Bang. Bosh. I'm on solids, yeah? Iman: You're on solids, there we go. So... pretty loaded question, but what do you think makes a strong personal brand in today's day and age? Gosha: I always think about the question as a, like, multiple-sided because it really depends on who's asking and what part of the journey you're at. But to me, it's... all the people that I've ever worked with that have strong, strong brands, personal brands, whatever it may be, it's always people that have had the understanding that they can grow their taste, and taste is almost like a skill set. Like in a video game, you can level it up, you can rank it up. And as long as you have that belief that your taste can evolve, and you can make it better, and then you get more confident around it and share it, that's when you can reenact it through your personal brand. And it can be taste for whatever: cars, music, whatever it may be, as long as you're confident enough to share it because you leveled it up, I think that's what, where a magnetic personal brand will start, and then it's the details from there. If you're a car enthusiast, like, it might not apply to your work at all, right? But sometimes it's like it's just having the car... the textures, the features, the, the drive and how it feels, can affect, I don't know, what you end up putting out or what you end up communicating to the audience, just because of how it, how it inspired you, what it made you feel. And I think many people they just look at personal brands as like very straightforward. 'I have to put out this, this piece of content. I have to say these specific words. This is what my CTA has to be.' And I think it's a little bit deeper than that. Now, it's a loaded question so it's a little bit of an abstract answer, but I think a lot of people will find truth in it because they can look at things that they like and say, 'Like, well, how does that make me feel? How does that brand perform on me? Or how does it convert on me?' Iman: Well, I think before anything you have to decide... you have to make it intentional. And I think that's why, like, I see a lot of our clients, for example, at consulting.com, and they're very unintentional. Like, for example, they'll look at something that we do or some-one else does, and they look at execution but they don't understand the strategy behind it, and also they will look at the execution a lot of times not understanding the results on the other end of it. Like, it's funny, we've even had events of ours that have been, you know, behind closed doors, are the most studied and most respected and the most revered, and yet have yielded the worst results, because maybe they had the highest viewership or they had like the highest perceived like mark on the industry, but if you actually look behind the scenes and if you lift, uh, lift the hood up, I said they were some of our worst performing events. So I think all that to say that it's, you have to start with intentionality as to like, what are we actually trying to accomplish here, and what are we trying to convey? Uh, I say it all the time, like, I'll see people selling $35,000 B2B services, and they'll do like, 'Millionaire Day in the Life,' and I'm like, 'This is just... this isn't very conducive for the market that you're speaking to.' The way that you speak to beginner market is very different than the way you speak to mid-market, which is very different than the way you speak to, you know, the top end of the market, enterprise market. And what makes you attractive to one market repels you from the other market. Gosha: Of course. Yes. Iman: So, you know, for example, I think we were talking about this the other day with beginner market, you have to dumb things down on purpose, and that's actually like a... it's a skill to have. And it's actually quite difficult to do: taking, you know, when you want to say so many things about something and then condensing it down to the most important three, four, five points, and also just like putting your ego out the way because, of course, when you are a expert matter in a topic, you want to like, you kind of want to flex your knowledge and flex your like... Gosha: You want to get that depth out there, I guess. Iman: Yeah, exactly, and, and it takes great restraint to not do that. It takes great restraint to go, 'Okay, you know what, like, I could sit here and give uh a nine out of ten performance in terms of like my understanding and, as you said, depth of a topic, but if it just goes over the audience's head, like, I'm...' Gosha: One person will understand it. Yeah, exactly, one out of 100. Iman: Yeah, exactly, one out of however many people watch this, am I really like serving the audience? So with the beginner market, on purpose you have to bring things down uh and, and, you know, tone down your messaging. Uh, then with mid-market, mid-market's the market I struggle with the most actually. Mid-market, however complicated it is, you have to make it ten times more complicated, because I find that the mid-market... this is kind of why I struggle with these people... mid-market in general don't like us, because to be honest, they're smartasses. Uh, everything needs to appear ten times more complicated than it is, because they think that in order to get ahead in life, let's take the like... um, you know, we're obviously we speak to entrepreneurs primarily, but let's take the running world, for example. For beginners it's like, 'Put on your shoes and follow this simple plan.' Gosha: Yes. Iman: The mid-market runners, it's like, 'Now you need 15 gel packs, and you need this rehydration strategy, and you need...' Everything's ten times... And then advanced runners are like, 'No, I just fucking run.' Gosha: Yeah, yeah. Iman: Like you see... Gosha: Let me put on my flip-flops. I've seen the curve... Iman: Yeah, you've seen the bell curve, like, you know? And, and then once again, that's why like when you go to advanced market, they can just sm... like they sniff out bullshit so easily. And when you take a concept that can be said in two minutes, and you extrapolate it out over three hours, they're like, 'Or just fucking get to the point. Like, I can tell you're trying to make yourself appear more smart than you are.' Gosha: 100%, yes. Iman: So, we... we do well generally with beginner market and very advanced market, we kind of struggle with that mid-market, but I guess bringing it back to the initial reason I even brought this into the conversation, I think you have to be intentional as to who you're speaking to. If you do serve the mid-market, like, you have to lean into that. I don't know if you have any thoughts... Gosha: No, I think it's... it's such a tough task, and simply because you have to remove sometimes the ego in terms of, 'I, I can't speak about all my beliefs, or I can't speak about all my processes, because some people just aren't there yet.' And I, I totally see it. Even for myself, I have to often remind myself, where maybe it's not even a client or partner, just the general group of people I'm talking to, that maybe I have to lose out on converting, so to say, the, uh, one person I'm looking for because the nine other people are in that mid-market stage or maybe early stages. And if I start talking all this whatever, as as much as I want to say, depth is great, sometimes it'll again go over their heads, and you could make the mistake of having an audience that is 100% mid-market or 100% in their early stages, and yeah, if, if you don't get that realization early enough based on the feedback that you're getting from these people, that, 'Hey, this is where we are, these are our reactions, maybe it's sometimes hate, maybe it's just not enough engagement,' then you're just, you know, you're going to have a brand that's going to grow way slower than than someone else's. No, but the reason I started I think with, with taste specifically is because I think it's very important. Like we can go into technical things like, building reference boards or mood boards, and for some brands it's like that was, you know, years ago for them. But I think you have to understand with yourself, like when you consume, before you go into creating, what moved you, and where you are in terms of the market. So, could you, for example, say, I don't know, in relation to cars or, uh, I don't know, art or real estate, would you be the beginner or the mid-market, or are you, you know, the expert in, in that sense of it? So, I think once you consume consciously, then you sort of understand like, 'Okay, if I was in the audience, what would I like to see? What would I like to, uh, be taught or how would I like to be spoken to?' That, that, that's kind of how I see it from that end. Iman: So when it comes to taste, how much of your personal... because a lot of people, at least, you know, specifically for our clients, they're taught to put out super valuable content and keep it all value-based and XYZ, this, that. So how much of your personal life and your personal taste and your personal, self-interest, should come into your content, in your opinion? Gosha: Well, let me ask you, how much, when people look to work with you, for example, for consulting.com, or any, anything that you have in your group of businesses that is very close to you, in terms of maybe it's just very high-ticket or whatever it may be, how much of it is people coming to you, whether you survey them or just ask, like them just saying like, 'I wanted to work with Iman and his team'? Iman: Hmm. Gosha: And yeah, if the answer is like there's quite a big part, then you have to show more of yourself. You need to be able to deliver, uh, true and real personality, because if you don't, and they meet you or they don't meet you, then, you know, they might sort of look through the BS and, and say, 'Well, this isn't the guy I was looking at,' or 'This was just an actor, you know, to, to convert me or sell me on something.' Yeah, that's, that's sort of almost an open-ended question. But you know, uh, I think it's, it's also one element... let me just fluff this shot real quick... I'm sorry, I had, I, I... I was faking, uh, my, my skill set the entire time. No, but... Iman: The other day at snooker, fuck, bro, you... I'm getting hustled. Gosha: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I, I think it's ultra-important. I think there's times where it's overestimated, um, and people start getting into this limbo state of the content plan and what they're doing in the content, for example, like let's take running. Do people watch because you're a great runner, or because you have a great personality? And that's the big mistake where people cannot answer for themselves truthfully, because everyone wants to say, 'Well, I'm a great guy or girl, like I have a great personality.' Sometimes, as you said, beginner stage, middle stage, it's the running that matters. But I think for, yeah, depends on your business as well. Iman: Yeah, I think especially when you're dealing with... I think the higher up you go in the market, in terms of market sophistication, there is less and less of the personality side that comes into it, because I do think in general, the higher end the business... like, for example, for me, I, there's many people just, in all honesty, I don't have the strongest affinity towards them, but like, I may not like them, but I respect them. And I, I can separate those two things, because at the end of the day I'm a business owner, and I may not like, agree with your lifestyle or, or want to even trade places with your general life, but like when it comes to your specific solution, I'm like, 'Listen, if your fucking thing works, like, I don't give a shit. You know, I'm just here to get results.' Gosha: Yeah. Iman: So I think the higher up the, the more sophisticated the prospect you're speaking to, the less they care about your own personal interests and hobbies and XYZ, and they just care more about, 'Okay, can you fix our problems?' People in the earlier stage or, you know, the mid-market, it's um, a lot of it is a lot more of the taste-making stuff. That said, I still think like, for example, for, like our clients at Quantum, I don't think it's a... it's nothing to do with me specifically, it's more just the philosophy of the company. So I think as a company or whatever your services, you do need to take a stance on, 'What is it that we believe in, what do we not believe in?' and make that very vocal and clear. So, for example, with us, we make it very vocal and clear with our Quantum clients, 'We don't give a shit what your revenue is.' Gosha: Yeah. Iman: We care about your profit. And also, we have many clients of ours making seven, eight, nine million dollars a year in profit... Gosha: Yeah. Iman: like net net, and then we have clients making two million dollars a year or, you know, even $750,000 in profit. Uh, you know, for example, two mill, two mill rev, 750k in net net profit, you know, it's on the lower end, but still. And I make it very clear, I don't look at you any differently, because for me, that's not the barometer for success. My barometer for success is, 'Do you have a business that serves you and gets you to your ultimate goal?' Now, if your ultimate goal is, 'I want to build the biggest business humanly possible and I want 75 people...' Like, listen, we have almost... I mean, we're probably the leanest we've ever been, 60... 65 or 70 full-time employees. Gosha: Yeah. Iman: You know, in-person office now in, heart of the financial district in Dubai. But to me, that's success. Now, if you asked me five, six years ago, I'm like, 'That sounds like a fucking nightmare.' Gosha: Yeah. Iman: So, I think that's one thing that we, for example, stand for as a company. So I think, the, depending on what part of the market you're speaking to, depends, that dictates, do you communicate as a company or do you communicate as an individual? I think sort of the higher up you, the higher up the market you get, the more you have to communicate as a company and company philosophies rather than individual philosophies. Gosha: Yeah, I don't know, it's... I, I, like, I'm on board with 100% of what you said. But at the same time, there's a very interesting thing you said, like, your philosophy is, uh, to dumb it down, like, you want to help people with your service, that, that, the company, the team wants to help people. And it doesn't matter if they have whatever revenue and, uh, the profit is what matters, or maybe it doesn't even matter, like, because there's certain ways you can help them that they're not even thinking about it. In a sense, it matters that the company's philosophy is displaying that at all times, right? But can you really, and this is a huge question for, you know, personal brand versus corporate brand, can you really sell that exact, uh, philosophy without being the cheerleader for it? Without being the face of, 'Well, I did it, or, or this is my story'? Iman: I understand your point, and I think, listen, is a very pertinent observation, which is... let's say, for example, I stepped out the picture, would that same energy come through to our clients? And I don't think it would. So you are correct in that. But I think it's just, maybe it's not so much a personal brand thing, it's more a... it's because I am the... of course, I'm, I'm the owner of the business, I'm the main spearhead of the business. So for me, it's, we've done something that no one else has ever done in our industry, which is grow the company eight years year-on-year in profit. And not only that, the most impressive thing we've done is like, okay, not only not be dumbasses with the money, but roll that into huge, huge enterprise plays. And I think, as you said, it'd be very difficult for the team to embody that, because for me, all of this comes from like, almost a, a deep... I just have such like a deep love and care for this industry because I've just been in this industry first as being an agency, like, working with these clients, then being a player myself, then owning the infrastructure layer, and like, I've just, I've seen so many people misled in this industry, or they're taught like short-term tactics, and that's why no one's been able to consistently year-over-year-over-year-over-year grow. So, you are correct in saying that that is a personal message, not a company-led message, but I don't know if that's a personal brand specific thing, or just a, when you are the spearhead of a service-based business like a consulting firm, it, I guess, it stems from the top just because I have... I'm the one that kind of have that had that lived experience. But I think, like, if we go back to the point you started with, the question of, or you mentioned a very, like, true thing. There's people that are, they could think you're not the greatest guy, but if your business does the job and, and gets the job done, they'll work with your business. But I think before getting to that stage, the, the strength of a personal brand is you can always be the greatest case study, right? Like you can always be the number one, like, 'Look at me, I was the success case. We can repeat this for you, and we can do this for you.' And so, like, even if they think you're not the greatest guy or you are the greatest guy or girl, whatever, people can't doubt the, the results. So I think in that sense, it still always goes back to, you have to speak to people... it's almost like back, you know what I mean? It's like backwards. Like, you, they might not like you individually, but the personal brand matters to them because it's now not a, it's not a marketing funnel, it's like a last stage of the close, so to say. Iman: So, I do agree with that. But I think, for example, least if I'm speaking to our clients, because I, I see there's a very clear... you get to that stage with your personal brand, and, and I've even had to give advice as I said to some of our clients where I'm like, 'What you accomplish is not relatable anymore, and you've reached that ceiling where what you accomplish, I just don't think is a case study for people anymore. It then becomes, okay, what have you done for other people?' We are so, we're just so far gone that stage of like, we accomplish... that's kind of why I've even stopped talking about numbers or our accomplishments or like, you know, I'll say, I'll speak in general terms. But when we have like a massive win, I don't think that our clients look at that and they're like, 'Okay, cool, they're winning, so that means I can win.' I think instead they look at, 'Okay, what can we do for our clients instead?' So, I get what you're saying, but I think you do get to a certain place with your personal brand where it no longer becomes relatable to the audience, and then it's like, 'All right, cool. You have accomplished this. And, you know, whether you're helping your clients with their business, their health, it goes from like, 'All right, well cool. It's expected.' Gosha: Yeah. Iman: '...that you can do it.' To like, 'All right, cool, what are you... who have you helped?' And that needs to be the, the case study. It's a tricky one on the using yourself as the number one case study for your personal brand, because I think at a certain point it's like, people almost say like, 'It's to be expected.' Gosha: Yeah. Iman: But, I guess switching gears, what do you think about formats? Or how do you view formats depending on... I think you, you know, for example, for the, the sort of clients that we serve at consulting.com. How do you view formats? Because I think a lot of it once again has to do with, what kind of, what segment of the market you're serving. Like, for us, it's been so, it's so annoying, because we can take a video that is super valuable, but if it's shot on a high-quality camera, it looks like, 'Ah, okay, this is just something else.' But then, if we slap it on a Google Doc and I do a Loom, now it looks like sauce. Gosha: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Iman: So it's interesting, once again, when you get to, I find mid-market especially, are like, 'It needs to look boring for them to think that it's valuable.' Gosha: Yes. Iman: Even though it could be the exact same information. Advanced market's slightly different in a sense, but still they have that thing of like, 'Oh, the less effort it looks like has been put into the content, the more valuable the actual meat and bones of it must be.' Gosha: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Iman: Even though you could be putting in ten out of ten effort into the content, and ten out of ten effort into the delivery of it. But if it looks like there's too much time spent on delivery, it's, it's almost like a counter-signal. Gosha: Yes. Iman: So, I know you've worked with a lot of clients in the space as well, I'll let you put the next one in and then give me, give me your answer. Gosha: No, I have a, a long-winded answer so I want to get this... even visually a little bit different. No, it's... it's a sick question because it applies to like everyone, whether you have one follower or, or ten million. The word that always comes to mind for me in terms of format, you, you sort of grazed it, but I think it, it takes like massive importance, is perception. Like what sort of perception do you create for the person viewing the content? And I think you have to, uh, mix perception being the final result, so like are you perceived as sauce? Or are you perceived as super technical, or maybe a little bit more edutainment where you're educating and, uh, entertaining? And I think, whatever you end up deciding for yourself, the second thought you have to ask yourself is, well like, what act can you play? In, in some sense like personal brand is always a little bit of an act no matter how much we, we try to say it's organic. But there's a giant difference then going into like technical questions and, like, what can you play, you know, in front of five cameras? Like for example, you have experienced everything, I'm sure you've, you've recorded a Loom on the webcam versus having five, ten cameras that are, you know, 100k rigs, whatever it may be. And, there's many people that lie to themselves. They can't handle a certain setup, they can't handle not being in a certain environment. And I think, once you answer that question yourself honestly, instead of comparing yourself to the competitors, the alternatives in the niche, whatever it may be, then you get an answer for yourself, you know, 'This is what I like to do, this is how I have to record, this is how I have to put out content for my personal brand, and this is how people perceive me.' And if those two things aren't matching, I think you've just got the wrong formula. And I think many people will try to be the sauce, but they'll record with multiple angles and they'll think, 'Well, I need this production value, I need to be professional.' Well, sometimes you just have to take the hit, for example, for yourself on your own channel, like you know the power of, just pulling out an iPhone because you have the thought in the moment. Your viewers in that specific moment value you being honest to them, being direct to them because, like, that's what you were thinking on a run or just walking from the office. And they pick up on that. But if you went into the studio and said, 'Hey, bro, can you like set up a shot for me and get this light for me for this specific shot?' the viewer's is already smart enough to read through that. Especially like when a big bulk of that viewership maybe is the mid-market for a specific video. It leaves a lot of questions like packaging also, like how, what type of people are you trying to lead in? Is it for consulting.com and the big businesses? Maybe you want to get a few more people for Wop and it'll be like smaller businesses. So, I think a lot of it depends on that, but ask yourself, what, where are you at with in terms of as a creator, and then ask yourself like, how do you want to be perceived, and that's where you start with the content. Make sure it has a fine balance. That's what, where I would start. Iman: Hmm. Back in the game. This comeback is going to be generational. Gosha: Oh, absolutely... I'm going band for band here. Iman: Band for band. Yeah. Hey, well I wanted... I wanted to bet at the beginning, so, you should, you should take note of that. Could have been up ten Gs. Gosha: Bro. Yeah, we'll see, we'll see. Yeah, I was... I would place the bet and then right away, the house is like, 'Fuck professional, professional player...' Gosha: Not to be too specific, but when I first started putting out content, I started with vlogs, like people can look back on it and it's the most crappy like... very similar to what you did in, I don't know, 2018, 2019, whatever, and... Iman: So how long ago was this? Gosha: A year and a half ago maybe. And, 500 views, 400 views. Iman: And what, at that point, what was your monetization mechanism? What, what was the purpose of it? Gosha: I think it, it was just simply, it was two thoughts, and this is where the perception fell apart with the format. I thought, 'Well, I need to be cool.' I, I use 'cool' not as a derogatory but as a simple description of it. 'I need to be cool because I want people to vibe with me and then work with me.' And the second thing is, 'I need these vlogs to look good in terms of packaging, editing, and the numbers, so that people can further trust me to, you know, run their thing.' And then I was like, 'Well, it's not getting the views because I, I, I'm not being cool. I'm playing like, you know, a character that I'm not myself. This isn't, you know, it didn't feel natural.' The big question is if your friends and family aren't vibing with it, then why would, you know, strangers vibe with it? Uh, which is a whole, the whole other topic, but at that moment I was, I, I sort of asked myself like, 'Well, you know, even if this did get 10k views, would anyone really go and say like, 'Oh, this is a cool guy, let me go and do something with him'?' But then, once what am I doing? Am I editing the vlog? I'm, I'm not an editor, I'm not a full-time editor. Am I shooting for people? I'm not a full-time videographer, you know, like, what would I be doing? And that's when I sat down and I was like, I was literally looking at the Shure mics, and I was like, 'Well, the Shure mic, it, it sounds so stupid, but it's just simply like, it sounds good and looks good to talk into it.' And I just love talking about brands. I love talking about, uh, brands I work on, I love talking about other people's brands, I love talking about content, how it makes people feel. And I was like, 'Well, if I'm working on brands, can I also get paid for talking about brands? Can it become a consistent thing?' And then I found my format. It was, I didn't want people to perceive me as bigger than the brands that I talk about, I didn't want to outdo them in terms of the production value. So I said, 'Let me do talking head, let me just put the camera up in front of me, and then let me make the depth of the content in the storytelling, in the scripts, and, and telling people why the brand is special, putting that brand on, and telling how maybe I could do better or, or how they could do better and, whatever it may be.' And that format fell in so well with both the people, and also myself, because it, it was just... it made sense for everyone. I think it was, it was, it was a very organic, uh, revelation. And, less cost because I wasn't running around vlogging all the time, more simple, easier topics to come up with. Over time, of course, the production value we stepped it up, because we wanted, you know, to, to cover more and, and bigger stories, tell in a more interesting way. But that's where I think the perception of how I wanted people to see me, and then the format I was comfortable with really, really aligned. Iman: There's no perfect balance when it comes to formats. You just have to look at it from what resonates the best with the market, what resonates the best with your buyers, and then what resonates the best with you. And, the important thing is sometimes the, or a lot of times, the thing that resonates the best with the market does not resonate the best with your buyers. Gosha: Yeah. Iman: And sometimes the thing that resonates the best with your buyers doesn't resonate the best with you. Gosha: Exactly, yes. Iman: So, there is... I've very rarely found it the case to be that the stuff that the market enjoys the most is what the buyers enjoy the most, because, you know, for every 100 people that watch you, maybe you've got one, maybe 0.5, 0.2 percent of people that will ever actually buy anything or become customers or clients or whatever the, the case may be. And with that being said, you've got stuff that the market really fucks with, but I said maybe your buyers don't, or you're in a situation where you've got stuff that is bringing in buyers, but maybe you don't enjoy making the most. Gosha: Yes, yes. Iman: And, that can be a, definitely a short- to medium-term strategy, but when it comes to personal brands, the biggest risk I've seen to any personal brand-led venture is just founder burnout. Gosha: Yeah. Iman: And I've just seen it time and time again. People are just... eventually gets to the point where they're like, 'Fuck this.' Like... Gosha: Yeah. Iman: 'I am creating content, I'm burnt out.' And a lot of that comes I think as well with misalignment. Gosha: Yeah. Iman: So, not to say that every single piece of content you make needs to set you on fire, because I can tell you there's a lot of stuff that doesn't set me on fire. And that's also because, of course, you know, as you get older and, you know, at consulting.com, we serve super high-end clients, they're making five million dollars a month in the info coaching space, and then we also help three times a year, we, uh, allow beginner businesses to, uh, to come on board and, and join. So, I'm speaking to such like a wide, a wide array of people, and of course, you always get more excited about talking about the things that you're living in the current moment. Gosha: Yes. Iman: So, I think that's just when people think about format and what content do they put out, they have to think about the three formats. Like, I know I was speaking to a couple clients and they're like, 'Yeah, listen, we just tried the sit-down thing and that, you know, we, we had such a crazy run specifically with the sit-down, red light, blue light, like, just like the... I mean, the, the whole Iman Gadzhi style...' Gosha: You cooked, you cooked. Iman: Yeah, you know, the, the, that came out of that whole like 2022, 2023, even like 2024 era. And I had, you know, some of our clients they were like, 'Listen, we just tried that, but it's just... it works, but we just can't bring ourselves to do it.' And I'm like, 'Well, then you've answered your own question, which is, if you can't bring yourself to do it...' Gosha: It's not sustainable. Iman: It's not sustainable. So, it, it, it, that format needs to get thrown out the window. Because yeah, sure, maybe it's effective. In their case, it was effective for the market and buyers, but if they just can't bring themselves to do it, then... yeah. Gosha: Yeah. Iman: You know, you, you have to look elsewhere. And I think, you know, when it comes to building a, a personal brand, people really need to think, not in terms of, 'Okay, what's the next three or six months?' Like, 'What does creation look like for the next three, five, ten, twenty, thirty years?' And they need to think about it in a perspect... you know, from a, from a place that gets them excited. Like, I think, you know, especially now, we've crossed ten years on YouTube, and I've had some conversations with you, I've had some conversations with Alex, another gentleman, earlier today like, while we were on a hike. I was like, 'Wow, I feel more excited for what we're putting out in 2026 than ever before.' Gosha: The next ten and... yeah. Yeah, yeah, of course. Iman: And, and I think that's because you take a step back and you evaluate the format, and, you know, I'll, I'll let you put the next ball, but, you know, one of the next things I wanted to talk about was, like, when is it time to switch up formats? Because I think that's one of the things that we've done very well, and, and I'm sure, you know, you've seen a lot of clients be quite dogmatic about it. Gosha: This is... it's a great question. I was... both to build on, on what you, what you ask, but also on what you said. No, but I, I was just going to say, super easy example and like, it will be applicable to people that don't have a personal brand. My second talking head video was got me multiple five-figure contract from some person coming in when I, I didn't even market. I didn't have a CTA. I didn't have a website. This guy came in and he said, 'I love your taste, what do you do for work?' I said, 'I have a studio, like, I do creative work.' He said, 'Can you do this for me?' I said, 'Yeah.' That's it, like. That's what it took, and the, the video had maybe 5k views. So, it, like, the return of per view was, was insane. But, later I would have a video that would do, I don't know, 150k. And I thought it was really strong, like, great retention, we worked on the hook, we worked on the packaging, very innovative, maybe it's even the video you found, you found me from. Zero in revenue. So, you have to mix and match. And, I think to, like, it's very tough for me to answer the question of when to switch format because you really, it's, it's a really long road and like, I would even say with you, like, ten years in. You're probably just past the, the beginning phase, like, the, the prologue, so to say. The, the first chapter. Iman: Yeah. Gosha: Yeah, there's, you have to remove almost... content has to become, in terms of personal brands... once you answer the question of what inspires you and fulfilling that inspiration, then you just sort of have to remove yourself from the equation. 'Like, okay, once I've fulfilled myself, what pays the bills? What grows the audience, and what does both?' And I'll throw it back to you, and ask you, don't you feel like, and maybe this is a bit controversial, but your conversion of the content that gets people to buy something, whether it's a product at, I don't know, a few hundred bucks to, uh, ten, tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands, is propelled by the fact that there's a lot of people creating positive perception around your brand, because people are, you know, it's a public persuasion sort of thing. Like people follow where the masses go. Do you ever feel like that? Iman: Yes, of course, but I... I don't think that's a byproduct of views. Uh, you know, I've seen some of the most like magnetic, powerful personal brands have that punch, and as I said, it's not because many people know them, it's because the right people know them. And, you know, we were even talking about, like, a, a physical brand, you know, earlier today, and, you know, I was talking about like, in that domain, there's a, a brand I used to wear four, five years ago, and then too many people started wearing them, so then there's another brand I started wearing and too many people started wearing them, and then, and, and, and, it, it's cool when it's small. And I think that's actually also one of the biggest advantages people have, like, people tell me they're like, 'Oh, but how do I compete against you?' and I'm like, 'Well, you have a fucking massive competitive advantage, which is, you are small and you're unknown, and when you're unknown...' Not to... not unknown, but you're, you're small in your niche, and when you're in your niche, you get extra points on top of that, because people think that they're getting something that no one else is getting. Gosha: Hidden treasure effect. Iman: You know, and, and you see it all the time with, uh, even like artists. Like, for example, like, even me with like Brent Faiyaz, like, bro, I've been putting his, like, back in the Sonder days, I've been using his, uh, music in our vlog since like 2016, 2017. Gosha: Yeah. Iman: Now, you know, I think his music is just as good as it's ever been, but of course, you know, so I, for me, I, I don't hold that same perception. But you, you see all the time people like, 'Oh, I knew them before they blew up. Their music was better back then.' And what's funny is they could be making the best music that they've ever been making, but simply because more people know about them, the perception is, 'Ah, this is not as good,' or 'It's watered down,' or 'It's blah blah blah.' Gosha: It's made for the masses. Iman: It's made... exactly, made for the masses. When in fact, actually, it could be literally their best work ever. Gosha: 100%. Iman: So, I've seen it many times, and, you know, we've had discussions about it, where someone will find a winning format and they'll just like rinse it for a year, 18 months, 24 months, and it will just... that's their thing. That's their like... that's their top of the hill moment, and they never get one of those again. Gosha: Yeah. Iman: And, even for us, like, you got to imagine the psychology of me with the team in, you know, this is what, three and a half years ago, we're like, 'Bro, the amount of effort I was putting into videos for the output in the sense of like, bro, I would just go, 'All right, what am I going to talk about today?' Like, people ask me, 'Where's my scripting process back in 2022 on the main channel?' I go, 'All right, I know that if I put a number in the title: 7, 17, 3, 5, and then just talk about some, some general life lessons or whatever's on my mind for that day, I'll spend like ten minutes doing some bullet points, I'll hit record, and I'll just free-flow.' And every video is just killing... like... Gosha: Yeah, yeah. Iman: you know, every single video, millions and millions of views. And, that format of, you know, red light, blue light, that Iman Gadzhi editing style, and it's so funny, I told the team, I said, 'This will be, have its moment for 18 months or two years. And this is like at the peak of that format working.' And I said, 'In 18 months to 24 months, not only will this not work, it'll be considered whack.' And my hypothesis actually was about vlogs. Gosha: Yeah. Iman: I said, 'I think vlogs went out, and they lost their moment, and they're going to come back and they're going to have their moment.' And that's actually why in 2023, beginning of 2023, we actually started the vlog channel. And I think that hypothesis was very correct. And I think vlogs very much did have their moment, and I think are still having their moment. I think people really appreciate it and, and enjoy vlogs. But my point is, for us being in this game for ten years, I'm always so fascinated by formats, and I think when I look at a personal brand and I'm like, longevity... like how does a personal brand keep its longevity? It's, 'Okay, can you... for example, in our case, can we go from a raw, off-the-cuff video just on my iPhone, to a hyper-edited main channel video, to a super tactical business video...' Gosha: Yeah. Iman: '...to a vlog, to a business vlog, you know?' Because of the, the, the sort of business vlog, day-in-the-life updates, you know, whether it's the super businessy vlogs that we have, they're very different to our, you know, sort of vlog vlog, just, fun, fun videos. So, I guess what's your opinion... I know, you know, of course, we're not going to mention any names, but, you know, we have a lot of like conversations off-camera about... and even, you know, me, I, I love when people... one of the questions I ask most in life and with the people around me in my team is, you know, 'What am I missing? What's my blind spot?' and, you know, we've had many conversations about like, 'What's my blind spot about direction of our brand, of my brand, our formats, XYZ?' So, you know, without naming any specific names, I know you and I have both sort of acknowledged like, 'Okay, this format is running for you. I'm happy, but like let's see what you do in 12 months or 18 months and, and where are you going to take this next?' Because this, this moment is not going to last forever. Gosha: I think we're very aligned on the examples, again, not to name them. I think you put it well, it's... you some... like, even, you said the Iman Gadzhi style, like, edit itself. Sometimes you can even be the leader, the pioneer in the space, if you're smart enough to recognize that we're, we're getting close to over-saturation. Like this is, this is about to, the bubble's going to burst, then you're in a really good spot. I think the one... you said, like, I think many, very... you set them very separated, but I think there was a few thoughts that are, should, should be connected. You're in the game for a while, you don't have the ability to experiment as much as maybe, like, myself in terms of my audience. So, if I screw up a video, it's not as, like, no one will care. If you post something that is virtually maybe a flop or something that, like, doesn't connect with the audience, as much as you wanted it to, okay, that might reflect on, I don't know, people aren't subscribing, people are saying this is whack, they're hating, whatever, the perceptions is, is negative. But I think you get to the point where you've went through a couple formats, you, you had that experimental phase... super important, everyone says that, but it's really important you go through that experimental phase and understand like, everything we talked about in the beginning, what fits for you. But after that, if all these different formats fit your vibe, fit your process, fit your business, fit the market, then, you know, go into this lane for four or five videos, whether it's short-form or long-form. Go into this lane for four or five videos, and then, very slowly start comparing numbers to the market. I like this equation, uh, if, if we get really specific. And again, for someone this will go like fly right by and for someone I think this will be super applicable. Be, without explaining it's tough, but be narrow enough, in terms of your topic selection, that there's a guaranteed audience, but, wide enough, that, it, it still pulls in numbers. And what I mean by that is, let's take for example, I want to talk about a brand. If I talk about Gucci, I mean, there's a million other creators talking about Gucci, right? If I talk about a brand that is getting up there, but has maybe 30k cult followers, well, I can guarantee myself like, a very big percentage of that cult following going and watching that video. I'm like, 'Ah, okay, like that, that's, that's what I want to be aiming for.' But, to get to those sorts of decisions, you need to understand like, do I go for more for the trendy topics or do I go for more for the niche topics, right? More for the cult audiences. And you have to ask yourself, like, 'Well, do I want 10k views, or do I want 100k views?' and whatever it may be. But, I don't... it's, it's so tough because I always, it's, you have to, with formats I have, you, you really have to rank it, I think, based on where you are at your current journey. And I would say for anyone that is not in your position, it just has to be, get at least a comfortable foundation of, of type of content, and then just experiment. And once you feel like there's some over-saturation because you've consumed that and you've seen the competition or you just, it's on your subscription list, get out there, get out of there, and maybe you'll return, maybe you'll come back as you said with vlogs. But, I don't know, if you're a little bigger, you might have to, sometimes you have to cook your own format, you have to be the reference case, you have to have the balls to become the inspiration and be the leader in the space. To do that, you have to mix formats. You have to put long-form style videos in short-form. You have to mix vertical into YouTube, I don't know, like, we can talk about technical things here again and again, but, I don't know, it's, it's a good... really good question. I think, I think it takes a specific, a very specific case to apply, and, and if it was easy, I guess everyone would do. Iman: Ooh... Back in the game. This comeback is going to be generational. Gosha: Oh, absolutely... (laughs) I'm going band for band here. Iman: Band for band. Yeah. Hey, well I wanted... I wanted to bet at the beginning, so, you should, you should take note of that. Could have been up ten Gs. Gosha: Bro. Yeah, we'll see, we'll see. Yeah, I was... I would place the bet and then right away, the house is like, 'Fuck professional, professional player...' Gosha: You have one platform to, to put content out in 2026. You run B2B business, hypothetical. Iman: Mmm. Gosha: Let's say, every service product, whatever it may be, $5k, $10k+ per, per client, per product. What platform are you choosing to put content out on, if you had to pick one? If you had to be super selective? And, dependent, like the formats we talked about, what is the format of content you're choosing? Iman: YouTube, niche YouTube channel, and just speak very specifically to your ICP. Like I said, I just see like, like what we're doing right here, like, you know, when we're having a conversation about how to build a magnetic personal brand. Once you, your brand grows bigger, you can keep it more open-ended, but I think a lot of people just need to go, 'specifically for' insert your industry or your niche. So, you know, sometimes people will be making outreach videos: how to do outreach, but I'm like, 'Okay, cool, but tell me about your clients. Like, who do you work with?' And they're like, 'Yeah, we work in 90% with agencies.' And I'm like, 'Okay, cool, well then, why don't you fucking put agencies in your title, then?' Like, why are you keeping this open-ended? Iman: And, once again, it's, it's hilarious because, I mean, we see it time and time again, even with consumer products. You could have the exact same product, but you market it specifically to females or males or this demographic or that demographic. Even though the actual thing itself is no fucking different, simply because it's been marketed specifically to that demographic, they feel like, 'Ah, okay, this was made for me.' So, I would make niche content for your market, make sure you address the market specifically, don't worry about crazy viewership, and you can build a fucking insane business off the back of that. Okay. You? Gosha: I'll answer exactly as you would, just getting a bit more specific. I would pick, I would not even imagine, I would pick the exact people I want to work with, let's say, I want to work with you, right? I would make the video that I know is going to pop up in your feed, like, technically and abstractly. I would think about what are the words, what are the things that are on your recommended feed? What are things that, what are thumbnails you're interested in, whether you're consuming it as inspiration or like, even entertainment? What is that that you're watching? And then I would make that video, and I would, I'll still be myself, I wouldn't script it as, as if it was, uh, you know, perfectly for you, but I would make that video and I would say like, 'Okay, if it's not Iman...' you know, which would be the, the big fish sort of in the pond to capture, '...there is maybe, you know, people that are like 10x smaller currently in the moment, that are very similar.' And, then I would think very specifically about those people, and I'd make those videos just based on thinking about the decision-maker of those businesses. I think that is like, I don't say it often, in terms of like just publicly, but I think, if someone copied, for example, like even my channel, and then just went and made a bunch of similar videos in regards to like their ICP, and, or their, you know, their target client, very specifically to the person, $10k a month easily. $50k a month maybe even, $100k as they scale, simply because everyone watches content, everyone consumes it, and it's almost to me like a great way to, it's like an outreach method. And that's how I would build a... again, very similar to you, but, like I would add that element. Iman: So, of course, we, we can be quite abstract with some of the things that we speak about. I know a lot of people go, 'All right, cool, like amazing, you're mentioning all these different formats, and talk about longevity and all this stuff, but like, what's my first like one, two, three steps?' Let's assume someone can spend, you know, everyone who we address on our business channel, you know, these people are, you know, serious folks, serious businesses. They have a budget to invest in their content. Now, some people have $3,000 a month, and some people have $300,000 a month. Gosha: Yeah. Iman: There's quite a spectrum in between. So let's say, so, someone has $5,000 a month they want to dedicate, or commit to making content and building their personal brand, like, how do you deploy that? Gosha: We're going super specific. Iman: Yeah. Gosha: Freelancers, contractors, agency... Iman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gosha: And who, like, who do you need? Iman: Okay. Do we assume they know what type of content they want to post? Iman: They have a rough direction. Gosha: Okay. With, if we were to be super specific and be realistic, with $5k a month, you need to do, you need to spend some brain power to develop the content plan and the strategy yourself. Anyone that's going to be good, more or less, unless you find a, like a one-in-a-million hidden gem creative strategist, you're not paying them to create something, uh, substantial for you. So, they watch this video, they come up with some ideas, they're, they're inspired, they create their content plans, they create, you know, inspiration for themselves, and they understand, 'Okay, this is sort of the content I want to make.' Um, let's assume they don't have the final formula because they don't know who the hands are for the editing, they don't know how to shoot, they don't know how to package these videos and so forth. Uh, by the way, are we talking YouTube-specific or all platforms? Iman: YouTube. Gosha: Okay, YouTube. The first one I would start with is once you understand your reference, I always use the word reference. Find an example of people, and, and usually it's people you like watching. So, very often, if I want to post a vlog, and I watch your content, I'll say like, 'I'll use you as a reference and I'll say like, how do we achieve that?' Certain things you can't reach, but certain things obviously you can. You take references, uh, and this is coming, like, this creative studios do this for really big projects. Take three to ten references, send them, and take actual social networks where these, uh, references have posted on: Twitter or X is a good one, YouTube comments, uh, whatever communities, what, creators might have a Wop community. You literally go into that community, and you start, start saying, 'Can someone edit videos like person X or person Y?' or whatever it may be. I'll say, very hands-on, I found my editor through, I saw a very specific YouTuber, again not naming names, and I said, 'I want videos like this guy,' and I went into his community, and I said, 'Who can edit videos like this guy? Can you do a test case for me?' and I sent 30 seconds of footage in, he edited like that guy, like that guy's videos, like the reference, boom, easy. I found my editor, still work with him all the time. So, you need to pick the references, and you need to go... I don't like the idea of job posting because you're going to spend a crap-load of time that you don't have right now to sort through resumes of, I mean, hundreds, thousands of people that might not even understand the niche itself. They might be technically good, yeah, but you don't want tech... you don't want... there's so many good editors, you don't want just technical expertise. You need someone that understands you. If I want to edit like Iman, I need someone that doesn't just hands-on know how to do it, but understands the angles, the cast, the conversations, what to cut out, what to put in. So to do that, you need to go to the source, you need to go to the communities. From what I said, does that make sense, how to get there? Iman: Yeah. Yep. Okay. Gosha: Cool. Once you have that, start like, content is as much like cutthroat as anything, start competitions within, within your teams, within your processes, like give out trial tests, obviously pay people well, pay them for trials, if you can, if you can afford that. With $5k, I think you can. Uh, sauce them, you know, a few hundred for each. But, get them to compete on those trial edits, and once you feel like you have someone you vibe with, and understand that, even based on the communication that, 'Okay, this is a person that gets me, they understand me,' after that first trial reel, give them a first real... I don't mean like an actual reel, like Instagram, but, after that first test, give them a full video, and sort of go from there. And I think you can repeat that process again and again and again, until you find your perfect match. Once you scale your budget, you can scale the team and have more people to work with. I really believe in, in the function, in the factor of competition, and what can bring out, and I recommend to many people that are above that $5,000 budget, I don't know, $10,000, $20,000, get the competition with editors going within your team, not in a bad way, but they're shooting ideas off each other, they're, you know, they're playing the game so to say. But that would be the next stage, obviously. That would be the editing component. The second biggest thing to me is, is like packaging, and many people, like, so many people talk about it, but so few understand it. Same exact process: look for thumbnail designers, people that can help you with titles maybe, you know, it's going to be creative strategists, it's going to be creative directors, and, uh, people that will help you on the topic selection as well, and go through that entire process again. How you do that, again go to social platforms, look up people they've worked with. You need to dig and it's not easy. You can't just look up like, 'Who edited this video for Iman?' Like you're going to have to, uh, get crafty with it, but you'll find the case study, you'll find people. Whether it's youtubejobs.com or whatever it may be, although I don't think it's super efficient, yeah, I, I would, I would do that process again. So, editing we have covered, packaging we have covered, hopefully again that was, like, people understand clearly enough how, how that would have to be done. And the third thing, I vouch for this a lot because it helped me on my journey, you've done it probably, I mean, on very different levels: have people you're growing alongside of, have a community, whether it's actual paid communities with people that you're actively joining and saying like, 'Hey, let's have accountability for each other to grow, give me feedback on this content piece, you know, engage with me.' It's, it's like, it's fluff engagement, but it's so important, because like, it's still competition at the end of the day. Get that feedback, improve on your video, if we're not going super specific, and, and you'll be better off, and get that engagement from, from that circle. I work with two guys that are in completely different content, uh, spaces than me. They give me content, they give me feedback on every single video. I give them feedback on every single video: packaging, title, retention hooks, intros, whatever it may be. But I know people who have 100-person community, right? They have a full team that covers that. So, that's a very small investment, big return. If you have $5k, you'll spend a lot on editing, you'll spend less on packaging, you'll spend probably the rest on gear if you can afford it. If you want to do talking head, also with the Osmo Pocket 3, if we get specific... no, no shout-outs here, but, one last thing I will say that completely changed my perception on, on YouTube creation: the gear, the setup, has to have high production value perception. None of my content would have ever worked if I didn't have the Shure mic. (Iman laughs) And, people could argue that, and it might sound so stupid, and I think you, you understand what I'm talking about. But the fact that I sit there with 500, I had so many people commenting on my videos like, 'How do you have 500 subs? Like, you, you look like you should have 20,000, 30,000.' And that was planned, that was exactly what we were going for, because we wanted to be like, like Iman, like Joe Rogan, like this guy, that guy. So, that would be another investment to make in terms of the setup. Iman: Am I solids? (Laughs) Gosha: You... you forget. (Laughs) You're, you're solids. That's what happens when you play this slowest game of pool on earth. Gosha: More of a casual question on you for content. Do you ever get, like, ticked off with how good the content might be, but how simple the packaging needs to be for people to actually click on it? Like there's a beauty in the simplicity of it, like, sometimes it just has to be a super contrasty like... Iman: I just understand the ebbs and flows of the markets, and I understand like, I don't get married to any specific format, which is why I think we've done relatively well with our brand, in the sense that, I know a format will come in, raw. That raw format will have its moment for nine to eighteen months. Then, sit-down, like that Iman Gadzhi style, had its moment, and some like, fizzle out quicker than others. And same thing with like title and, and packaging. Like they have their moments and they fizzle out, and I think, as long as you don't get married to any specific format, that, I think that's when, that's when you're going to have serious problems is when you're, when you're married to one specific format and you're not willing to, uh, pivot or move away from it. So, I, no, I, I don't get... Gosha: This doesn't stress you out. Iman: It doesn't stress me out, because the market is the market, and at the end of the day if the market wants something that is easily digestible, or, or at least the format is easily digestible, then... it is what it is. Not, not personal. Yeah, exactly. Like, I, I'm, similar to you in the sense that I'm two parts: I'm creative and a business... I'm business-minded and creative at the same time. So... Gosha: That's a foul. Two shots, yeah? After you, my friend. Iman: Yeah, there is that frustration because you just, part of you wants to creatively make... (shoots and pockets a ball) there you go, two more. Gosha: No, I, I, I get 100% of what you're saying. I think the people just starting out, it's such a... oh, it's a headache. I, I always want it to be like, the packaging needs to match the craft. It needs to be that. But you're right in saying, it's a, like, you have to balance your archetype of, 'I have to run a business, not just a, you know, a creative thing.' This is not just for a bunch of subscribers, this is for people that need to go and buy my product, so... but it's... Iman: And also, I, I guess the other part of it that comes into the equation is, people think like, 'staying true to yourself.' They put it up, they put it in a, such a positive light. And, and I think there's definitely a lot of positives to it, but in a sense, like if you do, if you just create content that you want, then that act in and of itself is actually quite selfish. So you can selfishly sit there and go, 'Okay, well, I want to make content in this format and I want to speak like this, and I want to use... stay in this lane,' and like, bear in mind, I said, that's like a totally valid strategy, and a lot of people do it, and once again, like, I think you can really feel when just, like, someone embodies it, but on the flip side, in a sense, it is almost selfish because, all right, well, what if you could, if you just steered the compass four or five degrees and you changed the way that you approach the content and the delivery of the content, whether that be in physically what you're saying or the, the packaging or the format of it, and made it more palatable for a wider audience, are you then serving... are you actually then being more selfless in that act? Gosha: Of course. Iman: And also, you know, I think we, we were talking about this yesterday in the car. For me, you know, one of the reasons I have so much... I'm always like studying different industries, as, as are you, you know, one of the reasons I have so much respect for Drake, is because, not from like, the music perspective, for me, it's actually from the perspective of like, 'Okay, to get to the top of your game and stay there for so long.' And also, he's one of those cases where, I think he is such a master with his pen, but also knows how to make just like kind of like, just like club bangers... Gosha: Yeah. Iman: ...where the lyrics don't even make sense, but it's because he has that range to him. Gosha: Yes. Iman: And, at least for, you know, us with our, our brand, I think we've done well in that understanding that there's heavy, heavy, heavy business owners fuck with our stuff and, and see clearly see the genius of it. And, but then there's also people who are like at the beginning of their journey that are like, 'Yo, like I just...' Like if you see us on TikTok, it's such... like, you, it has no relation to like what, what we actually do for work. Gosha: Yeah, yeah. (Laughs) Iman: And that's because like, I, I at least... and also, I, I will say, I know I make less money because of this. So, and this is, this, I think this takes us back all the way to right at the beginning of the conversation about being intentional, and also not copying other people's strategies... Gosha: Yes. Iman: ...when you actually don't know what their motivation is behind it. Because I've had so many people be like, 'Oh, well, why did you do this?' and I'm like, 'Because I just think it's... just for the culture.' Gosha: Yeah. Iman: 'Oh, why did you do this collab with this person that makes no sense from a monetary business perspective?' I'm like, 'Because I just find it funny.' Gosha: Of course. Iman: '...because I just think like, for the culture, like the fact that we did this collab or we...' You know, like, we, I just don't want us to be put in a box. And I think actually, short-term that's a really bad strategy because people, people want to understand someone. And we're very difficult to understand, because the truth is we are very multifaceted. It'd be much easier... Gosha: I had that exact like, description of it, as well. Iman: ...you know, we're talking about, 'Okay, what does the next three, four, five years look for us?' because, you know, the God's honest truth is, like, we're co-owners in a multi-billion dollar company. You know, we, like, I'm saying, I, I try these days to not get into specific numbers of it, but like, 2025 was fucking massive, and 2026 is already off to like, a, the craziest start. And that's ten years in the game. So for us, it'd be easy to go, 'All right, well we are just serious business tycoons in this industry.' But like, and short-term, that's the best strategy because that's the easiest way for someone to understand you in that moment, but from a medium- to long-term perspective, I actually think it's one of the worst things that you can do when you box yourself in, because of course people can understand you, but once someone understands you, that's one of the issues with having a personal brand, is at a certain point that novelty, novelty wears off, and there's nothing, you have nothing left in the chamber to give the audience. They know you, they know every aspect and every part of you, and there's nothing left for you to reveal. And I think sometimes it's good to reveal... to actually keep parts of yourself, or sometimes to lag one or two years behind like, who you've become... Gosha: Yeah. Iman: ...and what you're showing to the audience. So... Gosha: That's so... the word range just speaks to me so much because I, I, even myself with someone who's working in the space so often, it's so applicable to athletes or artists, like, 'Can he do rap, can he sing, or can he dunk and shoot three-pointers, right?' But I think with, with creators that are also running a business, can you have those ranges within the creation and the business or, whatever it may be, building a community? I even, sometimes the most simple solution, uh, it, it, I'm, I'm starting now because it, like, it applies to me so well because sometimes the simple solution is like, asking yourself, 'Do you have that range? Do you have that multifaceted brand? Are you creating something that can be active and convert people now...' Iman: All right. All right. Gosha: ...into, into fans, followers, whatever it may be? And then can it also do it in two, three years, four years, five years? But I wanted to ask you real quick, in terms of your personal brand, you don't have to get into specifics because, you know, we, we can't, uh, give away all the sauce. Iman: Mmm. Gosha: But, how far do you truly, like, actively look in terms of, 'I can imagine what the content will be in' however many years? Maybe it's weeks. Maybe you say it's one week ahead. Maybe you say it's ten years. Iman: All right. All right. Iman: So, I guess when you ask that question, are you talking about how intentional am I, or how far ahead am I thinking? Gosha: Yeah, I mean, I guess it's both. It's, I mean, so many people say, 'Oh, I think, you know, I'm legacy building, I'm thinking ten years ahead.' But are you actively, do you understand what your content, what your personal brand... Iman: I, I, I'm playing a 10, 20, 30, 40, 50-year game, but I'm not planning that far ahead, because the truth is you don't know where your life is going to be, you don't know where your brand's going to be, you don't know where your interests are going to be in ten years from now. So, can I sit here and say, 'I plan my brand ten years ahead'? No, I don't know where it's going to be in ten years or what direction, and, cuz as I said, I don't like to put myself in a box. But I, I think long-term, and, and I think even thinking in that way is indicative of someone who thinks long-term, you know? What I just mentioned there, where I'm like, 'All right, I have a strategy with my personal brand which is, more open-ended,' which short-term actually means you make a lot less money and you, it's a lot less effective short-term, because it means that your brand is a lot trickier to, to put a label on, because you are many things. So, yeah, when it comes to planning, I, I just find it hilarious, you know, people will tell me, 'Oh, my ten-year plan, my five-year plan,' I'm like... Gosha: Yeah, that's not real. Iman: Bro, who the fuck knows where the world's going to be in five years? You so, that's, that's that. But for the next year or two years, definitely, at, at least especially for the, I'm very intentional. Like, I'm probably one of the most detail-oriented people on earth. You know, you and I have some very like, meta-level conversations about like, 'Okay, this person puts this idea or perception out to the world' and you and I are like, 'Okay, but then this is an act and what's actually happening is here, and they're trying to convey this, but actually, if you, if you know how to read these micro-expressions, like, this is actually the head space of this person.' So, yeah, I'm extremely detail-oriented, and I think... I think about these things, and I sit and ruminate and mull over these things a lot. Now, at least in 2025, because we had such a crazy year buying consulting.com, buying stake in Wop to become a co-owner and, you know, the crazy growth that both those businesses had, I had to really put on my business owner cap in 2025, um, which unfortunately when you put on your business owner cap makes you... Gosha: The creative half falls off. Iman: Yeah, makes you a very bad creative. So in 2025, at least for me from a content perspective, I think we really, it, it, it was our worst year. In terms of, I'm not talking about like views, results, this, that, because, you know, from a results perspective, the content yielded incredible financial returns across the board for all the businesses, digital or physical. I just mean like, I looked back and I'm like, 'I just didn't, I couldn't give the quality control that I would have wanted to.' Like, I, ideally, there's that one book, it's about, uh, Steve Jobs, and it's all about like, uh, I forget what it's called. I forget the name of it, but it's basically like, it's a relatively short read, it's three, four hours, and it's all about how like Steve Jobs would not let a single ad go out ever without him seeing... Gosha: Without him seeing. Yes, yes, yes. Iman: Yeah, exactly. And that's really the, the chokehold I'd like to have on, uh, our, our content and specifically the quality of our content. And, yeah, in 2026, I'm just very excited because I said 2025 was all really like putting my business owner cap on, and I think 2026 is a chance to kind of step back into, pick up my creative cap and, and, um, wear that for a little bit, and just have fun. Gosha: Nice. I, I think striking that balance is, is, is the most important. It often opens also avenues, like, sight-wise in the business as well. Because, I mean, you work with so many people that need, need that from you and your teams, to tell them both from a business side and a content side, like, it's, it's such an important part of your brand and, and the people you work with, so I think it's awesome that you're getting more back into it and it will be good to see.